Curse

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 23, 2005, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by QQ-

haha gay nerd

obviously you get raped too much to even go NEAR tombs. as for uas, arena net used false advertising, and lied to us when they said that there would be no grind when they lured us into buying this unreturnable game

LoL way to personally attack, cause that makes you COOL!!! I swear you UAS kids are just like the zombies in night of the living dead, just kinda shambling along mumbling "UAS... UAS..." You dumb RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO, I said I was all for UAS... and aside from insulting me the only contribution you have to this thread is to cry about uas.... get a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing clue.

jesh · Aug 23, 2005, 07:21 AM // 07:21

What's UAS?

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 23, 2005, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Ah, but you see, my ignorant one, since all we have to go on IS the skill description, and you've failed to provide written proof otherwise, AND the skill works as described by the skill description - then I'd say you're simply (again) stating your opinion based on zero basis of reality. Your failure to acknowledge that you're wrong reinforces my contention that it doesn't matter what people write, you'll stick to your misguided beliefs, even when I'm not the only one refuting them. You have no idea what a real exploit is, and your panties are in a bunch based on ONE skill you deem an exploit.

So, then my only response to you is - no wonder you were banned from TGH forums.

Again, with the insults, because I dont see things the way you do. Way to go. What did I just say to you? I said I believe its an exploit, I said I believe that the devs did not intend for monks to solo UW. Does it really bother you so much that I believe such things? Why do you care what I think so much that you want to be all insulting over it?

I love the logic also, because I refuse to change what I believe because a bunch of bitter people say I should, that means i'm EXTRA wrong... Rofl... you people are a kick.

Youre free to believe whatever you want dear, you can stick your fingers in your ears and go LA LA LA LA LA LA LA and read the skill description over and over and keep telling yourself that things are how they were intended to be, because its not possible anet failed to see the exploitability of the skill. You can ignore the facts about why the monk class exploded and a noob necromancer quest item sells for 30k.... just keep your head in the sand dear.

Don't expect to be able to flame me into changing my beliefs, I certainly didn't expect anyone to change thiers when I started this thread.

When the skill is fixed, then you and I will both know what anet intended wont we?

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 23, 2005, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

What's UAS?

some people who played beta didnt understand that in order to playtest the myriad skills in this game anet had all skills unlocked to facilitate testing the interaction of skills. I dont even think it was for all of beta, but some of them feel like they were lied to because the retail didnt turn out to be like the game they played when everything was unlocked for testing purposes.

apparently anet didnt do a very good job of explaining what a beta period is for.

That having been said
THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT UAS.

jesh · Aug 23, 2005, 07:28 AM // 07:28

I played beta. I know how it was. I don't know what UAS stands for. Mind enlightening me?

Er wait... is it Unlock All Skills?

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 23, 2005, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

I played beta. I know how it was. I don't know what UAS stands for. Mind enlightening me?

Sorry, unless i'm mistaken it's unlock all skills. but you have to be careful when talking about UAS because it has a tendency to overrun threads. Because the people who are for it, as I am, can sometimes think that any and all conversations relate back to UAS but thats just not true, and this is one of them.

Mourning Air · Aug 23, 2005, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

I said I believe its an exploit, I said I believe that the devs did not intend for monks to solo UW. Does it really bother you so much that I believe such things?

This was not directed at me, but... the problem is that you throw around the word "exploit" so much and basically state it as fact, when it has been shown clearly that this is not an exploit. Read my last post before this. You can believe the build is overpowered if you'd like, but it's not an exploit.

Things that are unintended are not automatically exploits. I'm sure the devs never intended "taxi" services to spring up and run people almost anywhere in the game, but would it be accurate to say that is an exploit? Of course not.

Again, exploits invlove "exploiting" actual bugs in the game, not simply using what's available in the game in an unexpected way. The old Elona Reach timer bug is an example of an exploit.

Endowed Johnson · Aug 23, 2005, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Elistan, congratulations man! You are not only the original poster, but have been on every single page of this argument passionately debating.... er ranting over what you believe. You've demeaned and belittled those with differing views while practicing the fine art of semantical sumo wrestling. If this were to be resolved on the basis of whose intellectual self image and ego were most at stake behind the issue, you'd win... hands down.

As for the guy you said you gave him ample time and opportunity to prove that other characters solo UW (W/R), then ranked right into him not even a page later (wtf man, living moment by moment on a bulletin board is kinda a wasted life) for not giving you proof, well, why SHOULD he? So you can start a whole new thread bemoaning the fact that another class can do it? Further, doing so would, in itself, be advertisement for that build to be exploited. Of course, you being only of good intent and community spirit WOULD want it popularized so that it would be exposed. In turn, of course again only because you care so much for the community and its state of balance ( demonstrated countless times as you attempt a psuedo intellectual strangle hold on everyone you've percieved as an opponent ), you would then lead the noob charge of doom to have it nerfed to hell and back in some form or fashion. All the while, being a hero in your own mind.

I could easily press on to more pertinent points within this argument. But as much fun as you've had with your snide comebacks and point by point nitpicking, I'd rather just take one quick shot at you in the paragraph above, since I grow tired of typing about the same time most BB readers grow tired of reading a post which is three paragraphs. GG.

Sekkira · Aug 23, 2005, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

Mirhi: from your list, the following can be easily worked around:
- Single removal, will only remove chaff you put up, monsters take turn casting
. Shatter Enchantment
. Drain Enchantment
. Inspired Enchantment
. Strip Enchantment
. Chilblains

- Degens that aren't powerful enough by themselves to get the job done:
. Life Siphon
. Phantom Pain
. Faintheartedness
. Suffering
. Well of Suffering

Then there's skills that shouldn't be on this list in the first place:

- Damage or life-stealing skills whose effect most certainly gets reduced by Protective Bond:
. Illusionary Weaponry
. Feast of Corruption
. Barbed Signet
. Unholy Feast
. Vampiric Gaze
. Vampiric Touch
. Phoenix

- Skills that work differently than you apparently think:
. Channeling + any spamable spell [Channeling does not actually steal energy]
. Searing Heat [nobody is dumb enough to stand around in this until it ends]

All of a sudden the list is quite a bit shorter, and considering a full skill list containing ~450 skills total, you're going to be able to avoid most of the dangerous skills by just picking the right place to go to. What's left is aggressive enchantment removal (Well of Profane, Lingering Curse, Rend Enchantments), energy denial which tends to kill most non-Warrior solo builds equally (lots of mesmer skills, debilitating shot) and 'on fire' condition - stacked conditions or mixes of degen/conditions can also get dangerous, but the chance of meeting either is curiously small throughout the game.

Okay, for one, most mesmer and necromancer damage is actually after armour, what the damage says in the skill is exactly how much it will do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

I'm willing to wager though that anyone who does solo in uw, playing along with the unproven notion that other classes can, they cant go afk while 6 aataxes beat on them.

Secondly, neither can the monk. 6 Aataxes is 2dps each. Bleeding counters half of the energy regen you have up so at best you're getting 6 energy per second. It doesn't take a genius to discover that you have at best 10 seconds to do something about staying alive in that situation before you die horribly. Just try to go afk in the middle of this and I'll see you in ToA when you come back to the puter and realised you died.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

What did I just say to you? I said I believe its an exploit,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

Its an exploit, and it needs to be fixed on that merit alone.

Try to be consistant, otherwise you're open to flames kthx.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

Does it really bother you so much that I believe such things?

The problem is, you're trying to put this across as fact. It is not entirely known that the skill IS NOT intended as such, however, it is not entirely known that the skill IS intended as such. Which brings me to my final point:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

I said I believe that the devs did not intend for monks to solo UW.

That's all well and good, I wont knock you for what you believe in. To repeat myself, you really sound like you're trying to impose these believes on the rest of us and that you believe that you are absolutely correct about the devs intentions despite noone else knowing what the hell their intentions are (which is also for another thread) and that you seem to without any formidable truth or proof to back up these claims.

Sorry if this feels like a personal attack, but some things have to be said and made clear.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 23, 2005, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeroLion

No class can solo the UW. None. Certain classes can solo certain portions. Here's a short Mesmer build to get you started as they are they the most unpopular PVE primary class:

1) Signet of Midnight
2) Epidemic
3) Distortion
4) Channeling
5) PBAOE of your choice
6-8) your choice. I recommend something cheap with little to no recharge time for one of those skill.

That will get you through a portion of the UW. Just as a 55/105 will get you through a portion of the UW.

As a W/Me I must say I find that extremely hard to believe. At the very least it'll be incredibly fiddly and rely heavily on the secondary profession, as mesmers have no PBAOE spell. Plus require lots of luck.

Is anyone actually using this, or is it just a thought experiment?

Even if it at all works it'll take ages to kill the mobs as you wont have many points left to put in to your secondary class skill to bump the PBAOE. This build is certainly nowhere near as powerful as the 55/105 "I'll go to bed now and let the Aatxe pummel my avatar and continue playing in the morning as it is immune to physical damage" build.

If I was to farm with my mesmer I'd go hunting casters. Stormriders, for instance. And even then it'd help greatly to be part monk, for the healing and spellbreaker.

To Elistan: give up. You'll never convince the people running 55/105's they're exploiting, but that doesn't really matter. ANet knows about the 55/105 monks, they (must surely) have statistics on the game features so they'll be aware the number of players running the build is skyrocketing, and it's pretty obvious from "frog interviews" that they're looking in to the situation.

The big question isnt IF they'll do something, but WHAT. Will they nerf protective bond to make monks more on par with other classes wrt soloing, or will they scatter more disenchanting mobs to make all enchantments less useful?
I hope the former but suspect the latter.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 23, 2005, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourning Air

This was not directed at me, but... the problem is that you throw around the word "exploit" so much and basically state it as fact, when it has been shown clearly that this is not an exploit. Read my last post before this. You can believe the build is overpowered if you'd like, but it's not an exploit.

Things that are unintended are not automatically exploits. I'm sure the devs never intended "taxi" services to spring up and run people almost anywhere in the game, but would it be accurate to say that is an exploit? Of course not.

Again, exploits invlove "exploiting" actual bugs in the game, not simply using what's available in the game in an unexpected way. The old Elona Reach timer bug is an example of an exploit.

I can believe its overpowered? You'll let me believe that? wow, how kind of you. Go directly to hell do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars. I'll believe as I damn well please, the skill is being abused, and I believe that makes it an exploit. If your definition of exploit and mine do no jive, oh well. As I told Mimi, the only thing we can do is wait untill the update to see what the frog meant about 'those who seem invincible". Then we'll know that the devs intended. Untill then I'm going to continute to believe that its abused. Play all the word games you want, broken/unbalanced/exploited whatever. Its not correct, imho. I cannot make myself believe that the devs intended monks to solo in UW or anyone else for that matter. How many people have argued that the fact that anet hasnt acted on this means they dont care? Here's a thought, maybe they have been holding off yoinking this build untill they fix some of the other things that are the root cause of the monkroaches, like the group drop rate, or anything else that makes it more profitable to solo as opposed to work with a group. Honestly, could they dare to remove the abillity to solo UW without giving the monkroaches something else profitable to do?? I could just hear the outcry now. All we can do is wait for me to be validated by anet eventually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endowed Johnson

Elistan, congratulations man!

Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endowed Johnson

As for the guy you said you gave him ample time and opportunity to prove that other characters solo UW (W/R), then ranked right into him not even a page later.

What does it matter when I called him on his bullshit? He didnt name a class like you just did, he said anyone who knows what thier doing can solo in UW. As in he knows what hes doing and can solo UW In any class. I highly doubt the latter. As far as giving him enough time. I never mentioned a time limit for him to do so, the reason I 'ranked into him" so soon was that he didnt say, "give me some time." or "i'm working on this build and I'll let ya know". He resorted to "I dont have to prove anything". And while thats true, it sounds an awful lot like "i cant prove anything". Particularly after stating that any class can solo in UW. I might not have ranked into him so soon if he had had any intention of backing his words whatsoever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endowed Johnson

(wtf man, living moment by moment on a bulletin board is kinda a wasted life) for not giving you proof, well, why SHOULD he? So you can start a whole new thread bemoaning the fact that another class can do it?

*shrug*, my life to waste man, and I'm not alone in this, the view count/post count says this. As far as why he should give proof, I cant belive I have to explain this to you. He stated that my entire thread was incorrect because every class can solo uw. he said that the fact that "anyone who knows what they are doing" can do this PROVES that I am wrong. The point is, I dont belive that any class can solo UW like monks can, and the proof I have behind that is that there arent necroroaches running around, its monkroaches. If hes going to say that something he says invalidates what I believe, you're damn straight i'm going to require proof. As far as what I would do afterwords, I was quite clear that if he showed me otherwise, that I would come back here and repent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

To Elistan: give up. You'll never convince the people running 55/105's they're exploiting, but that doesn't really matter. ANet knows about the 55/105 monks, they (must surely) have statistics on the game features so they'll be aware the number of players running the build is skyrocketing, and it's pretty obvious from "frog interviews" that they're looking in to the situation.

The big question isnt IF they'll do something, but WHAT. Will they nerf protective bond to make monks more on par with other classes wrt soloing, or will they scatter more disenchanting mobs to make all enchantments less useful?
I hope the former but suspect the latter.

I appreciate the advice Numa, but my intention was never to change anyone's point of view on this. I knew from the start that such would not be possible. It is interesting how many take such great offense at my opinions. Its also interesting the 7 or 8 different flames that keep getting used on me in some kind of effort to change what I believe untill it jives with what they feel is acceptable. Its further interesting to me to watch half of them try to put words in my mouth so that they can fit my thinking into some preconcieved box that they can deal with. Half of them seem to take offense in the sheer fact that I'll not let them shape my thoughts on the issue. To answer someone elses concern, Yea, I state what I belive the issue with prot bond to be as a fact. To me, it is a fact. I shouldnt at this point in time have to state every sentance that this is all purely what I believe. Everyone else can love it or leave it. It doesnt matter, My belief does not require the love and admiration of all the monkroaches. Although I will thank those who can let me believe what I will without being insulting about it.

Silmor · Aug 23, 2005, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Okay, for one, most mesmer and necromancer damage is actually after armour, what the damage says in the skill is exactly how much it will do.

I'm fully aware that a lot of mesmer and necromancer skills ignore armour. Now let's take a look at the skill description of Protective Bond.

"While you maintain this "Enchantment", target ally cannot take more than 5% damage at one time. When Protective Bond prevents damage, you lose 6-3 energy or the spell ends."

Emphasis mine. Note the simple statement there: 'damage'. Not damage-after-armour, just damage. Armour ignoring damage, armour piercing damage, elemental damage, physical damage, all except DoTs are treated in the same way by Protective Bond - you cannot take more than 5% damage at one time. Armour has nothing to do with it, so armour-ignoring skills are affected by it just the same. 'What it says in the skill is exactly how much it will do' may be true for regular situations, but not when facing Protective Bond/Spirit.

If you don't even know how the engine behind the 55/105 setup works, don't bother correcting people about it, and don't expect yourself to be taken very seriously when claiming there's nothing wrong with Protective Bond anymore.

MagicDizk · Aug 23, 2005, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Ok here is the simple fix for the Under World:

You MUST have 8 players on the team to enter

No need to nerf Protective Bond
No need to strip Enchantments

Fox Reeveheart · Aug 23, 2005, 01:36 PM // 13:36

I think anything that is an "exploit" would be maybe the abuse of a bug to someone's own benefit or even something the devs did not think of (such as not thinking of prot bond and UW) and abusing that to their own ends.

but then again I guess that would include a few others "exploits" as well.

Such as running services.... but then again those arent exactly "harmful" to anyone besides the thing-a-ma-jig about high crap in low arenas, i personally like the idea of beacons to drok runs, i had both my characters ever made take that, i never did it to get some hardcore elite skill to go pound lower levels... HELL, i dont even like PVP, i just want to win HOH one time, out of the 40 times i tried.

One more of these "exploits" might have to be the marhan's chest, but lets be honest and say thats probably the LEAST harmful of all the exploits out there and just a way for someone down on their luck to make some cash, its still at a slow rate of maybe 2k an hour with full bags/belt/backpack, and its still farming in a sense, i just run in there with my ranger/monk with dryders defense (AWESOME against those damn ice imps), stormchaser and dodge, and usually some type of healing (mending or healing breeze) and I farm that for maybe an hour or two, i didnt hurt anyone from me getting 2-4k did i from doing something i dont actually want to do, but for some of us its the best way to get cash.

Charcoal Ann · Aug 23, 2005, 01:44 PM // 13:44

the 8 players idea is all very well but the monks can get a team and charge off untill everyone is dead or has left and continue as before.
(if this happens you just know that there will be people chargeing 1k to join a 105'rs group and leave straight away.

)

MagicDizk · Aug 23, 2005, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann

the 8 players idea is all very well but the monks can get a team and charge off untill everyone is dead or has left and continue as before.
(if this happens you just know that there will be people chargeing 1k to join a 105'rs group and leave straight away.

)

Also they can make it so you can see the other players skill bar and health/eng levels before going in.

SOT · Aug 23, 2005, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

What does it matter when I called him on his bullshit? He didnt name a class like you just did, he said anyone who knows what thier doing can solo in UW. As in he knows what hes doing and can solo UW In any class. I highly doubt the latter. As far as giving him enough time. I never mentioned a time limit for him to do so, the reason I 'ranked into him" so soon was that he didnt say, "give me some time." or "i'm working on this build and I'll let ya know". He resorted to "I dont have to prove anything". And while thats true, it sounds an awful lot like "i cant prove anything". Particularly after stating that any class can solo in UW. I might not have ranked into him so soon if he had had any intention of backing his words whatsoever.

LOL oh ho ho ho! You called ME on my bullshit? HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAhAHAHAhAHAHAHAHAHAHA. No, you pulled the 'meet me after school' routine and I refused to give in to your stupidity, and, rather than take it like a man, you have to keep bringing me up. I left the thread YESTERDAY. The issue with me DIED yesterday, but you just cannot stop eating your foot can ya?

Are you more upset that I commented at all, or that I will not take your bait and show up in game to give you my attention? cmon, be honest

Replies to this topic do not dispell the fact no one cares that you believe the unbelievable. Really. No one does.

AeroLion · Aug 23, 2005, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

That's actually wrong.. it would never work without Spirit Of Failure. Try to keep the information correct that you post here. And give credit where it's due.
( directed towards AeroLion )

The above build only works against 3 Aatxes and it's iffy. But the problem is being able to "solo the UW" right? Spirit of Failure would help, you're right.

I'm not sure what you mean with the credit part.

Anyway, all the builds I posted aren't exactly efficient or reliable at solo'ing down there. Killing stuff on that warrior build is tedious and takes a helluva long time, especially. My main purpose in posting was because the OP was being belligerent and wanted builds so I gave him some.

SOT · Aug 23, 2005, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endowed Johnson

Elistan, congratulations man! You are not only the original poster, but have been on every single page of this argument passionately debating.... er ranting over what you believe. You've demeaned and belittled those with differing views while practicing the fine art of semantical sumo wrestling. If this were to be resolved on the basis of whose intellectual self image and ego were most at stake behind the issue, you'd win... hands down.

As for the guy you said you gave him ample time and opportunity to prove that other characters solo UW (W/R), then ranked right into him not even a page later (wtf man, living moment by moment on a bulletin board is kinda a wasted life) for not giving you proof, well, why SHOULD he? So you can start a whole new thread bemoaning the fact that another class can do it? Further, doing so would, in itself, be advertisement for that build to be exploited. Of course, you being only of good intent and community spirit WOULD want it popularized so that it would be exposed. In turn, of course again only because you care so much for the community and its state of balance ( demonstrated countless times as you attempt a psuedo intellectual strangle hold on everyone you've percieved as an opponent ), you would then lead the noob charge of doom to have it nerfed to hell and back in some form or fashion. All the while, being a hero in your own mind.

I could easily press on to more pertinent points within this argument. But as much fun as you've had with your snide comebacks and point by point nitpicking, I'd rather just take one quick shot at you in the paragraph above, since I grow tired of typing about the same time most BB readers grow tired of reading a post which is three paragraphs. GG.

Endowed Johnson has won a battle in the hall of Heroe's and keeps the favor of the gods with meaningful human discourse.

Greatest...Comeback...Ever...Posted...Here.

Aniewiel · Aug 23, 2005, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Since this thread has gone on for 14 pages and is now repeating itself, it has reached its logical end. Onward and upward folks.

/closed